Utah's Republic

I am a veteran and I am voting for Ron Paul.

Thank you Oak! I agree that Ron Paul is the closest candidate we have to a founding father. I’m reminded of the admonition from David O. McKay on the subject:

“We
have urged you, above all, to try to support good and conscientious
candidates of either party who are aware of the great dangers inherent
in communism and who are truly dedicated to the constitution in the
tradition of our fathers. We have suggested also that you should support
candidates who pledge their sincere fidelity to our liberty-a liberty
which aims at the preservation of both personal and property rights.”
(“Vote Your Convictions,” Deseret News, 11/2/64)

I’m also reminded of the Lord’s admonition in D&C 98:10…

“Wherefore, honest men and wise men should be sought for diligently, and
good men and wise men ye should observe to uphold; otherwise whatsoever
is less than these cometh of evil.”

I believe Ron Paul fits the ticket on both accounts. Also, while on the subject of Ron Paul’s foreign policy I think Ezra Taft Benson put it well when he said:

“Nothing
in the Constitution nor in logic grants to the president of the United States
or to Congress the power to influence the political life of other countries, to
‘uplift’ their cultures, to bolster their economies, to feed their people, or
even to defend them against their enemies.” (America at the Crossroads, August
30th, 1969)

By that logic we shouldn’t have opposed the Nazis. They had no interest in attacking the U.S. this is the type of absolutist position that Paul supporters always take.

Louganzo, wars are complex things. It’s hard to use hindsight to say what Ron Paul would have done in WWII if he’d been president, and frankly, that’s probably unfair. People only know what they’ll do when they’re in the situation themselves and have the level of intel at that moment. Jefferson went after the Barbary Pirates because they were messing with our shipping and he didn’t wait for congress to pass a war resolution… Dr. Paul is very much about defending America. Here’s an interesting clip I listened to tonight of Glenn Beck responding to a radio caller on why he would vote for Ron Paul if Gingrich got the GOP nomination (and Beck does NOT like Ron Paul on his foreign policy). 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RNlNFtC0slQ

The Nazis were intent on conquering the world- eventually. That has not changed over the years even down to our day when they have aligned themselves with groups like the Muslim Brotherhood, Socialist, Communists and a plethora of other radical groups right here in our own country. However, our founder’s policy was to protect America from enemies foreign and domestic and not to be the policeman of the world. We entered the war because Germany’s ally, Japan, attacked us outright at Pearl Harbor which was viewed as an act of war against the United States. It wasn’t until we were attacked that we engaged in military action for self preservation.

Throughout history there have always been major threats to the world. It isn’t wise or moral to constantly be looking for a fight. Our standard should be peace. I believe that we should renounce war and proclaim peace and that we are only justified in taking up arms as an act of self defense of our own nation (D&C 98). You might be interested to know that the First Presidency, while the war drums were beating in 1941, opposed the war that was coming. While replying in a letter to the US Treasury for their requests from the church to support war bonds Heber J. Grant, J. Reuben Clark, and David O. McKay wrote:

“The Church as a Church does not believe in war and yet since its
organization whenever war has come we have done our part … we do
thoroughly believe in building up our home defenses to the maximum
extent necessary, but we do not believe that aggression should be
carried on in the name and under the false cloak of defense. We
therefore look with sorrowing eyes at the present use to which a great
part of the funds being raised by taxes and by borrowing is being put …
We believe that our real threat comes from within and not from without,
and it comes from the underlying spirit common to Naziism, Fascism, and
Communism, namely, the spirit which would array class against class,
which would set up a socialistic state of some sort, which would rob the
people of the liberties which we possess under the Constitution, and
would set up such a reign of terror as exists now in many parts of
Europe …” (LDS First Presidency, 1941)

So it turns out that you could oppose Naziism and still oppose foreign entanglements… If you are so interested in fighting non-US-defense wars I recommend dedicating your own life and property to those endeavors. Don’t rob the lives of our soldiers and the property of our citizens to serve your biases.

Interesting post, Oak.  Ron Paul’s positions are quite magnetic, meaning that they can attract and repel at the same time.  Ron Paul is a true libertarian, something that the Democrat Party and Republican Party are not.  When analyzing Libertarianism, you have to take into account the three legs: Political, Economic, and Social.  While many political and economic positions of Ron Paul are enticing to many conservative Utahns, the social positions are more troublesome due to the fact that Utah Republicans are very socialistic when it comes to the government telling citizens what they can and cannot do in their personal lives. Ron Paul and libertarianism operates under the philosophy that if something isn’t directly spelled out in the U.S. Constitution, the government has no business making laws about it.   Look at these Ron Paul positions for instance:

1.  The internet should be free from government regulation, including gambling, and pornography.  He has voted to reject laws that help catch online child predators.

2.  It is constitutional to engage in prostitution as long as it doesn’t hurt others.

3.  Opposes federal efforts to define marriage and supports gay marriage if that is “what people want to do.”

4.  Supported repeal of Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell policy.

5.  The federal government should stay out of the Abortion debate and that the decisions should be left to the states. 

6.  Supports stem-cell research

7.  Opposes capital punishment

8.  Rejects government issued school vouchers, but prefers education tax credits (a hypocritical position if you believe the federal government should have nothing to do with education).

9.  Paul believes in holding people and corporations accountable through tort action when it concerns polluters. (Republicans typically call for tort reform in an effort to protect corporations)

10.  Favors marijuana being legalized as a medical option and getting rid of government regulations and restrictions on all currently illegal drugs including alcohol.  They can also be traded freely as a product between the states under the interstate commerce clause.   

11.  Is against tinkering with the electoral college (something being talked about by current Utah Republicans).  

These are just a handful of issues that I know do not sit well with many Utah politicians and voters.  When considering Ron Paul, you have to take the whole package, not just portions of it.  Out of all the candidates currently running for President, Ron Paul doesn’t waver from his beliefs.

Jim, which Founding Fathers?  The Founding Fathers were not in agreement on everything.  We can’t just lump them all together all of the time.  The Founding Fathers had vigorous debate and contentions over many issues involving the size, scope, and reach of government.  

Louganzo, it is a very fair question.  After the attack on Pearl Harbor, President Roosevelt only asked for a declaration of war against Japan, not Germany.  In fact, there was no desire to declare war on Germany in the U.S. Congress even though the U.S. Navy was already engaging German U-boats in skirmishes before December 7, 1941.  Germany solved our reluctance to declare war on them by declaring war on us first in an effort to show Japan support for the Tri-Partite Pact.  I’m sure that Ron Paul would have opposed the Nazi’s after they declared war– just as had happened in history.  

I doubt that the majority of the Founding Fathers ever envisioned America to be at a point where it could be in a position to be policeman of the world.  Thomas Jefferson thought it would take several generations just to settle the Ohio Valley area when it actually took less than one generation to do so. 

We were probably lucky that Japan drew us into the conflict when they did (unfortunately, many young men paid for this with their dearest blood), because our isolationist tendencies could have led to Nazi’s ultimately conquering all of Europe and Russia and Japan conquering Southeast Asia and Australia.  I can’t predict alternate versions of history, but the world would be a much worse place if we waited much longer to get in the war.  Because of this wake-up call,  we do need to be more actively engaged in shaping the world in order to protect ourselves, but I do agree that we need to pick our “conflicts” wisely.

The solution to the Middle East is simple.  Encourage the development of alternate sources of energy.  Without oil, the Middle East wouldn’t have the money to buy/research weapons or stir up regional conflicts.  Oil is the best weapon to use against the Middle East, not war.  It is their Achilles heal.  Unfortunately, the oil lobby continues to buy influence among our elected officials to keep the world addicted to oil and the problems that come with it including war and the loss of American lives. Ron Paul has spoken out against this kind of corporatism (right-wing socialism).                

My thoughts on these issues are that as president, Ron Paul would respect the constitution and not engage in “executive order” manipulation of the law. The congress writes legislation and if they don’t change the laws, the president doesn’t have a lot of power to do it himself (unless you try and obtain dictatorial power by saying irresponsible things like “if the congress won’t do it, I guess I’ll just have to”).

On war, I think if the congress actually declared war, Ron Paul would carry it out. He wouldn’t engage with foreign nations like we see constantly happening during the past decades, unless the congress had a clear declaration. However, I think he would defend clear American interests like Jefferson did with the Barbary pirates. He’s tried to get congress to declare war instead of just funding wars, so there would be a clear objective.

I am well aware that the founders weren’t in full agreement on everything. Read my comment again. I said Ron Paul is the closest we have to “A” founding father. Also, David O. McKay said to support candidates who are dedicated to the Constitution in the tradition of the founding fathers. Perhaps you should address your comment at him although in his defense I think he was referring to their collective fidelity to the Constitution.

Jim, is this just a forum for LDS people only?  What about those who read your comments who don’t know anything about David O. McKay?  It would be nice to make persuasive arguments that stand on their own political merit rather than muddy the waters with the dogma of a specific religion.   With that said, if David O. McKay was alive today, I would ask him which founding fathers he was referring to as well.  For me, the tradition of the founding fathers is spirited debate, compromise, and a system of checks and balances that keeps one branch of government from overpowering the others. 

Now here is something to think about.  The currently gridlock in Washington would be well received by the framers who authored the separation of powers clauses in the Constitution.  For some strange reason, many Republicans view the amount of money a government spends as the sole litmus test of the size of government when in reality it is the sheer amount of legislation that is the true litmus test of the size of government.  For instance, the Utah legislature passed over 500 pieces of legislation in a six week period.  Now that is big government.  We don’t need 5,000 pieces of legislation every decade.  Gridlock in Washington is good, because of the limited amount of legislation that it creates. Our Utah Republic on the other hand would be abhorrent to many of our founding fathers, especially Thomas Jefferson and James Madison, because in Utah, we have a political system dominated completely by one faction that can legislate laws as easily as a King can make a decree. 

Perhaps now you know why I’m called the “King’s Court.”    I’m making a statement about the unhealthy political system in Utah.        

It’s very possible, Louganzo, that like Napoleon before him, without US intervention, Hitler would have be clobbered after spreading himself too thin by attempting to conquer nation after nation.  In fact, Hitler did make the exact same mistake Napoleon did in attacking Russia, both attempts proved disastrous for the aggressor.