Comments on: BYU English Professor Weighs In On Goodlad https://www.utahsrepublic.org/byu-english-professor-weighs-in-on-goodlad/ A Constitutional Right Sun, 13 Jun 2010 21:34:25 +0000 hourly 1 By: Oak Norton https://www.utahsrepublic.org/byu-english-professor-weighs-in-on-goodlad/comment-page-1/#comment-725 Sun, 13 Jun 2010 21:34:25 +0000 http://www.utahsrepublic.org/?p=514#comment-725 Lewis, nobody including you and me knows exactly what is happening in every classroom or faculty meeting in the district. The simple fact is, some teachers, and some meetings, are espousing these things and it's primarily because it's been pushed to them from the district. I personally know of 3 instances which occurred at different schools where children from 6-11th grade were told we are not a republic. Further, I have never stated ASD is teaching kids to believe in a pure democracy in order to become a socialist state. That's what the Daily Herald reported and it was false. My whole thrust at that time which they took out of context was to say that Goodlad is a fox and he's in the hen house and he's got some very disturbing views. Goodlad and Bill Ayers attend the same conferences and both espouse the need to teach democracy in education. This is all easily searchable on the web.

I further apologize to everyone on this board for some of the contentious posts. There's far too much acrimony and not enough seeking to understand. I am weighing shutting down the boards simply because of such heated exchanges. It does nobody any good.

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By: Pine https://www.utahsrepublic.org/byu-english-professor-weighs-in-on-goodlad/comment-page-1/#comment-726 Sun, 13 Jun 2010 20:39:15 +0000 http://www.utahsrepublic.org/?p=514#comment-726 Lewis, your points on McCarthy are quite informative. This page has helped me realize that Oak and his cronies are really McCarthyites. They want to bring back his fear and intimidation for all who oppse or disagree with them. An irony here is that McCarthy's interrogations helped make our government interference into our lives bigger than it had ever been before. Many of our freedoms the Founding Fathers gave us were taken in away in a few short years of McCarthyism.
The people that defend the beliefs of this page and Glenn Beck want to tear down and demonize anyone who opposes their views or has different interpretations then they do. They do not want freedom of thought. They accuse us of being liberal just because we see things differently.
They have avoided ever answering where in our constitution it is illegal to be socialist or communist (which I am not but I allow them to exist and have their say). They live by quotes from people with extreme views of politics. They do not want our country to have changed form their make-believe utopia that the founding fathers lived under. With a population of over 300 million we are not and cannot be the same we were then.
The supporters of this site need to hear these words of Dallin H. Oaks, “The Savior and his Apostles had no program for world peace other than individual righteousness. They mounted no opposition to the rule of Rome or to the regime of its local tyrants. They preached individual righteousness and taught that the children of God should love their enemies (see Matt. 5:44) and “live peaceably with all men” (Rom. 12:18).” These people want only to tear down others and destroy them- they do not seek to bring peace through to the world and build up God's kingdom.
Gordon B. Hinckley also said, “Political differences never justify hatred or ill will. I hope that the Lord’s people may be at peace one with another during times of trouble, regardless of what loyalties they may have to different governments or parties.” Honest differences are not a reason to tear down others as so many of the posters on this site do.
Lewis, hopefully your appeal to Oak and his followers to being able to concede points to others will be heard. Bruce Hafen also commented on this issue: “You might also ask yourself how much governmental intervention into the regulation of business and private life is too much. The people on the extreme sides of these questions convey great certainty about what should be done. However, I think some of these people would rather be certain than right.” If it is more important to be Certain than right for these people they are not meek, humble, or submissive to God's will.
This is why I post on this site, to help them see they are heading down a dangerous path and dragging others along with them. When their emotional arguments take precedence over all else, they cannot ever discover truth. Leiws, keep up your dispassionate posts.

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By: Pine https://www.utahsrepublic.org/byu-english-professor-weighs-in-on-goodlad/comment-page-1/#comment-727 Sun, 13 Jun 2010 20:19:00 +0000 http://www.utahsrepublic.org/?p=514#comment-727 Ken, thanks for the bait I won't ever be hooked by your fishing and provocations. Read these words by Bruce Hafen and learn from them: “I found myself wanting to tell our third-year law students that those who take too much delight in their finely honed tools of skepticism and dispassionate analysis will limit their effectiveness, in the church and elsewhere, because they can become contentious, standoffish, arrogant, and unwilling to commit themselves.”

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By: lewisbarnavelt https://www.utahsrepublic.org/byu-english-professor-weighs-in-on-goodlad/comment-page-1/#comment-728 Sun, 13 Jun 2010 19:27:54 +0000 http://www.utahsrepublic.org/?p=514#comment-728 That is funny, because the teacher friends that I talked to have never had to recite the motto at faculty meetings and went on to tell me that they didn't even know what the district motto was until Oak brought it to the forefront. Just because your school recites the motto, doesn't mean they all do as you insinuate, if you really are a teacher or just someone pretending to be. Regardless, if teachers are getting training on the meaning of the ASD motto, are they being taught to teach the kids to turn America into a pure democracy and therefore a socialist state as Oak contends? You mention basing views on “facts” but you have failed to provide any other than just parrot the “groupthink” that Oak and his minions are saying. Why don't you share with us on this forum what exactly ASD told you to do with their motto during your teacher training. Please enlighten us. Oak contends that ASD is teaching kids to believe in a pure democracy in order to become a socialist state where government ownership of all private property rules the day. I want proof that this is happening is ASD and a cute little motto hanging on the wall is not good enough. I want to know how that motto is translating to the classroom and individual child. I want specific examples. I want proof.

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By: teacher https://www.utahsrepublic.org/byu-english-professor-weighs-in-on-goodlad/comment-page-1/#comment-729 Sun, 13 Jun 2010 19:12:23 +0000 http://www.utahsrepublic.org/?p=514#comment-729 You might be surprised to learn that the teachers certainly know the motto, which was created by John Goodlad. In fact, Goodlad's words are so significant to the ASD that the teachers are required to RECITE them at faculty meetings. It is not just logic or opinions that these parents and citizens use in determining what Goodlad's beliefs and desires are. They have done a great deal of study and research to determine truth based upon Goodlad's own words and the evidence that is present in the motto, the curriculum, and the teacher training practices that are embraced here. You might try doing some yourself so that your contrary views are based upon some facts.

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By: lewisbarnavelt https://www.utahsrepublic.org/byu-english-professor-weighs-in-on-goodlad/comment-page-1/#comment-730 Sun, 13 Jun 2010 18:25:15 +0000 http://www.utahsrepublic.org/?p=514#comment-730 Oak, your entire movement of attacking the original Alpine School District motto: “Enculturating the young into a social and political democracy” is a great example. Not once have you proven that teachers are actually teaching students to be socialists based on the motto, but you sure do make it sound like they are. I have no problem with people raising an eyebrow and asking questions, but hopefully those who are asking questions are open to the answers they receive. I applaud you for asking those questions and taking an active role in the community, but you aren't accepting of their answers not matter how truthful they may be. You want to hear what you want to hear and won't rest until you get what you are after. Even though you know the motto has been quite innocuous in practice, you still won't accept Alpine School Districts response as to their interpretation of Goodlad's quote. That is what is truly important isn't it? How ASD is using the quote is, by far, more important than the quote itself or the Goodlad's biography where you make him out to be worse than Lenin. Dr. Gary Daynes of BYU gave a good lecture in 2005 on the issue. Daynes described social democracy as “a set of conditions that result when unrelated people put themselves in constant contact for reasons of mutual benefit. He differentiated political democracy as unrelated people who come together to make decisions about situations, which are in the intersections of their lives. He argued that social democracies are like neighborhoods, while political democracies are like networks of neighborhoods, and noted that these definitions also apply nicely to schools.” This may be different than what Goodlad believes and what you believe, but have you ever considered that what Daynes is saying is what ASD believes it to mean. Isn't what ASD believes more important than your interpretation. Your interpretation isn't guiding ASD, ASD's interpretation is guiding ASD.

The problem is that you cannot look past Goodlad himself and believe that ASD and BYU officials subscribe to your definition “social democracy” based on Goodlad's history. Perhaps Goodlad was pushing a socialist agenda, but that doesn't mean that ASD and BYU are doing so. Why can't they interpret Goodlad how they choose to interpret him rather than subscribe to your interpretation of him? Like I said before, you haven't given any proof that Goodlad's socialism is being taught to our students in ASD. Like Ken Bowers, you can't concede some points, no matter what the facts on the ground are saying. You come off as always right and never wrong. The world is a completely black and white place in your mind and there are no shades of grey whatsoever. You believe that if you promote any quotes by John Goodlad you are promoting socialism. Wasn't it your group that spouted a Karl Marx quote about Democracy? Does that now make your group socialist because it is reading Karl Marx and then quoting him? No. I don't believe that, but it is the same type of logic or lack thereof, that you and your lackeys have been engaging in. Perhaps ASD will change its motto over this entire issue. Who really cares? Mottos mean a lot more to those who create them than to teachers or students. Before the motto became an issue, I bet you would have a hard time finding teachers who even knew what the motto was in ASD. Now, they probably all know what it is, but I highly doubt they use it in the classroom because they have their respective curriculum to teach. You have made your point, Oak, and it is time to free the bee that has been flying around in your bonnet and move on.

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By: Oak Norton https://www.utahsrepublic.org/byu-english-professor-weighs-in-on-goodlad/comment-page-1/#comment-731 Sun, 13 Jun 2010 17:25:24 +0000 http://www.utahsrepublic.org/?p=514#comment-731 Lewis said: “Again, like Oak Norton you take something someone says, twist around, and then attack it.” I assume you're referring to Goodlad. Prove that I've twisted his words. They're his own. He's an admitted socialist, humanist, atheist, and that comes with a lot of baggage. So prove I've twisted something he's said instead of tossing out accusations.

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By: Oak Norton https://www.utahsrepublic.org/byu-english-professor-weighs-in-on-goodlad/comment-page-1/#comment-496 Sun, 13 Jun 2010 15:34:25 +0000 http://www.utahsrepublic.org/?p=514#comment-496 Lewis, nobody including you and me knows exactly what is happening in every classroom or faculty meeting in the district. The simple fact is, some teachers, and some meetings, are espousing these things and it's primarily because it's been pushed to them from the district. I personally know of 3 instances which occurred at different schools where children from 6-11th grade were told we are not a republic. Further, I have never stated ASD is teaching kids to believe in a pure democracy in order to become a socialist state. That's what the Daily Herald reported and it was false. My whole thrust at that time which they took out of context was to say that Goodlad is a fox and he's in the hen house and he's got some very disturbing views. Goodlad and Bill Ayers attend the same conferences and both espouse the need to teach democracy in education. This is all easily searchable on the web.

I further apologize to everyone on this board for some of the contentious posts. There's far too much acrimony and not enough seeking to understand. I am weighing shutting down the boards simply because of such heated exchanges. It does nobody any good.

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By: Pine https://www.utahsrepublic.org/byu-english-professor-weighs-in-on-goodlad/comment-page-1/#comment-495 Sun, 13 Jun 2010 14:39:15 +0000 http://www.utahsrepublic.org/?p=514#comment-495 Lewis, your points on McCarthy are quite informative. This page has helped me realize that Oak and his cronies are really McCarthyites. They want to bring back his fear and intimidation for all who oppse or disagree with them. An irony here is that McCarthy's interrogations helped make our government interference into our lives bigger than it had ever been before. Many of our freedoms the Founding Fathers gave us were taken in away in a few short years of McCarthyism.
The people that defend the beliefs of this page and Glenn Beck want to tear down and demonize anyone who opposes their views or has different interpretations then they do. They do not want freedom of thought. They accuse us of being liberal just because we see things differently.
They have avoided ever answering where in our constitution it is illegal to be socialist or communist (which I am not but I allow them to exist and have their say). They live by quotes from people with extreme views of politics. They do not want our country to have changed form their make-believe utopia that the founding fathers lived under. With a population of over 300 million we are not and cannot be the same we were then.
The supporters of this site need to hear these words of Dallin H. Oaks, “The Savior and his Apostles had no program for world peace other than individual righteousness. They mounted no opposition to the rule of Rome or to the regime of its local tyrants. They preached individual righteousness and taught that the children of God should love their enemies (see Matt. 5:44) and “live peaceably with all men” (Rom. 12:18).” These people want only to tear down others and destroy them- they do not seek to bring peace through to the world and build up God's kingdom.
Gordon B. Hinckley also said, “Political differences never justify hatred or ill will. I hope that the Lord’s people may be at peace one with another during times of trouble, regardless of what loyalties they may have to different governments or parties.” Honest differences are not a reason to tear down others as so many of the posters on this site do.
Lewis, hopefully your appeal to Oak and his followers to being able to concede points to others will be heard. Bruce Hafen also commented on this issue: “You might also ask yourself how much governmental intervention into the regulation of business and private life is too much. The people on the extreme sides of these questions convey great certainty about what should be done. However, I think some of these people would rather be certain than right.” If it is more important to be Certain than right for these people they are not meek, humble, or submissive to God's will.
This is why I post on this site, to help them see they are heading down a dangerous path and dragging others along with them. When their emotional arguments take precedence over all else, they cannot ever discover truth. Leiws, keep up your dispassionate posts.

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By: Pine https://www.utahsrepublic.org/byu-english-professor-weighs-in-on-goodlad/comment-page-1/#comment-493 Sun, 13 Jun 2010 14:19:00 +0000 http://www.utahsrepublic.org/?p=514#comment-493 Ken, thanks for the bait I won't ever be hooked by your fishing and provocations. Read these words by Bruce Hafen and learn from them: “I found myself wanting to tell our third-year law students that those who take too much delight in their finely honed tools of skepticism and dispassionate analysis will limit their effectiveness, in the church and elsewhere, because they can become contentious, standoffish, arrogant, and unwilling to commit themselves.”

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