Comments on: Daily Herald: What Social Democracy means to Utah County Educators https://www.utahsrepublic.org/daily-herald-what-social-democracy-means-to-utah-county-educators/ A Constitutional Right Thu, 05 Aug 2010 05:16:39 +0000 hourly 1 By: buffy https://www.utahsrepublic.org/daily-herald-what-social-democracy-means-to-utah-county-educators/comment-page-1/#comment-168 Sun, 04 Apr 2010 18:14:20 +0000 https://www.utahsrepublic.org/?p=350#comment-168 Since this is just a silly war on semantics and Jefferson used the words “Jeffersonian Democracy”, go ahead and ask your same neighbors, and their children, if they know what a Republic is or if they understand the difference between that and a democracy (I'm sure Jefferson could have told you.)

Because society at large has abdicated responsibility for the nurture of their children to government, generations are being produced that are “intellectually independent” of the principles that make us free. I wonder why that's happening…

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By: buffy https://www.utahsrepublic.org/daily-herald-what-social-democracy-means-to-utah-county-educators/comment-page-1/#comment-166 Sun, 04 Apr 2010 11:06:32 +0000 https://www.utahsrepublic.org/?p=350#comment-166 While most people just say they “don't like seeing socialist trends encroaching ever more into our capitalist structure,” Oak Norton is actually doing something about it. And the only name-calling, mud slinging, inflammatory accusations I've seen are coming from his critics. Maybe you should stop criticizing Oak and start using your fine skills of intelligence and articulation to do something productive. If ASD is in fact full of fine, patriotic Americans, then they won't mind changing their socialist mission statement. What's not logical, is to insist on representing yourself with words, and people, that don't.

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By: Bryan https://www.utahsrepublic.org/daily-herald-what-social-democracy-means-to-utah-county-educators/comment-page-1/#comment-163 Sat, 03 Apr 2010 20:51:00 +0000 https://www.utahsrepublic.org/?p=350#comment-163 No. I've read your links and followed your posts. This is not a philosophical debate unless you actually believe that ASD subscribes to Goodlad's agenda and not just their own interpretation of his words. If you do believe that, I would point you again to my first post here. If you are, as some have stated, just afraid that ASD has let some “poison” into the “well” of the district through this one quote, then this is an argument of semantics and logical fallacy.
Let me see if I can illustrate one of the problems with your argument. From what I've read on this site and the links you've posted, I would assume that you would agree with one or both of the following quotes: “It is not the State that orders us; but it is we who order the State,” or, “Universal education is the most corroding and disintegrating poison that liberalism has ever invented for its own destruction.” You like those quotes, no? You can interpret them to fit your philosophy and may even consider posting them on your website. I, myself, agree with the first one as it brings to mind much of what the founding fathers of our country believed. However, both of those quotes are from Adolf Hitler. Does the fact that I (or we) agree with something Hitler said mean that I (or we) agree with everything Hitler said and align ourselves with his philosophy? No. That's a silly argument, isn't it? I would feel intellectually ashamed for having even made that argument. However, because ASD uses a quote from Goodlad and posted an admittedly mistaken link (which, again, was immediately removed as soon as the district's attention was drawn to it) on their website, you accuse them of subscribing to all of Goodlad's philosophy and allowing his poison into the well. You're just off base logically.

Once again, as well, you would very much like to ignore all of the things ASD does right in order to focus on your grinding axe. I have never seen a school district more concerned about listening to its stakeholders. In my experience, parents concerns and rights are paramount, and the district tries very hard to meet the needs and wants of its community. I could offer you examples of books being removed from district libraries because a tiny minority of parents found something objectionable about the content (even if the overwhelming majority of parents were confused as to what the books contained that was offensive). I could point you to policy meetings that involve very heavy parental input. I could point you to high school community council meetings where parents and students take part in determining where and how money is spent; how the school policies are created, interpreted, and enforced; and what kinds of curriculum is taught.

I know I'm probably talking to a wall, so I'll finish up. You and your group have an agenda. Why is it only now that you seem to have this desperate semantic problem with the district's mission statement (taking into account that the statement has been in place for years)? Most of us in this area are concerned with the way our country is currently being managed. Most of us in this area are alarmed with the rate at which government is expanding. We don't like seeing socialist trends encroaching ever more into our capitalist structure and we want to fight back against them. However, as Nietzsche said, “Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster.” Stop taking out your frustrations on one of the most conservative school districts in the state (if not the country). ASD is made up of fine, patriotic Americans. The vast majority of its people believe in the constitution, freedom, capitalism, and all of the other ideals that have always made America great. They want success for your children. They are your friends and neighbors, not your enemies. If you want private schools, vouchers, more home schooling, or even just policy changes, great. Fight for what you want in the political arena or in board meetings. Stop using the sneaky and contrived back-door methods of name-calling, mud-slinging, and inflammatory accusations in the media.

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By: Oak Norton https://www.utahsrepublic.org/daily-herald-what-social-democracy-means-to-utah-county-educators/comment-page-1/#comment-162 Sat, 03 Apr 2010 18:15:20 +0000 https://www.utahsrepublic.org/?p=350#comment-162 Bryan, did you read the link I posted? This isn't just about a word. It's about an entire philosophy.

Also, your comments here are either carefully worded or just incorrect. Yes every parent has the *right* to be “fully” responsible, but some do abdicate that right and abuse their children. Nobody has said carrying a child to term “qualifies” parents to take care of a child. It's their natural God-given right to do so, but clearly, not all are capable of that.

When John Goodlad writes that schools must “enculturate the young into a social and political democracy,” we shouldn't dismiss that phrase when a school district casually puts their own interpretation on it. If Goodlad has an agenda, which he clearly states he does, then if the district uses his philosophy and implements the agenda unknowingly, they are part of the problem and not part of the solution.

I just posted a John Taylor Gatto audio file which I really encourage you to listen to, but also, if you want the whole story about what's going on with this, please click the upper right link to the “Democracy media frenzy.” If we still disagree, fine, but that's a much more complete picture.

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By: Bryan https://www.utahsrepublic.org/daily-herald-what-social-democracy-means-to-utah-county-educators/comment-page-1/#comment-160 Sat, 03 Apr 2010 10:18:35 +0000 https://www.utahsrepublic.org/?p=350#comment-160 Sorry about my typos. It's late.

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By: Bryan https://www.utahsrepublic.org/daily-herald-what-social-democracy-means-to-utah-county-educators/comment-page-1/#comment-159 Sat, 03 Apr 2010 10:16:02 +0000 https://www.utahsrepublic.org/?p=350#comment-159 Sad. I never said all parents should abdicate responsibility. I said that not all parents have the right to be “fully” responsible; therefore, the state must take some responsibility. There is no absolute there. If you think the ability to have sexual intercourse and carry a child to term qualifies everyone to take full responsibility for a child, that's your right; but you're wrong.
Also, you can argue semiotics all you want, but we live in a democratic republic which is often referred to as a democracy (even by the founding fathers who, admittedly, did not like “pure democracy” but were very much in favor of ideas like Jeffersonian Democracy which gets its name because it was Jefferson's idea). Was it Thomas Jefferson's or George Washington's teacher's fault that the didn't use “republic” every time they spoke of our government? You can call our government a republic or a democracy and it doesn't change what it is (like you can call any facial tissue a “Kleenex” even if its actual brand is “Puffs” and its still a tissue. Just because a child doesn't use the term you like doesn't mean that that child is ignorant of the principles that made us free. Like I said in my earlier post, you can ask them. Like religion, kids will pick up on their political views from their parents, not their English or math class. If your kid can read and write well, thank their evil communist teachers. If they are leaning away from you politically, thank yourself. It is interesting to me how many people will place the blame on schools while claiming responsibility for thier children's education. Maybe people like you should realize that the school's main purpose isn't to teach the particular semantics that you prefer. If you think parents are “fully responsible” for their children's education, and those children don't use the terminology that the parents would prefer, point the finger at the parents.
How about this: instead of whining and protesting and complaining about a link that was immediately removed and a mission statement that only implies anything socialist in the most loose and contrived interpretations, you read for an hour or two a week with your child. Read with them from a book that promotes your political ideals. Spend some time with them. Explain your views to them. If you do that, even Karl Marx couldn't pull them away.
Anyway, best of luck with your crusade (which I'm sure you'll continue anyway against all logic).

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By: buffy https://www.utahsrepublic.org/daily-herald-what-social-democracy-means-to-utah-county-educators/comment-page-1/#comment-153 Sat, 03 Apr 2010 06:03:24 +0000 https://www.utahsrepublic.org/?p=350#comment-153 Bryan, so because some parents teach their children to break the law or harm others, all parents should partially abdicate responsibility for the nurture of their children to government? Be careful dealing in absolutes. It doesn't hold up to scrutiny.

And when did it become extreme to insist that our educators are correctly educating? Go ahead and ask your neighbors, and their kids, if we are a Republic or a Democracy…. See what they say. Despite the fact that we have good teachers, somehow we are producing generations that are “intellectually independent” of the principles that made us free. I wonder how that happened…

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By: buffy https://www.utahsrepublic.org/daily-herald-what-social-democracy-means-to-utah-county-educators/comment-page-1/#comment-152 Sat, 03 Apr 2010 05:59:10 +0000 https://www.utahsrepublic.org/?p=350#comment-152 Bryan, so because some parents teach their children to break the law or harm others, all parents should partially abdicate responsibility for the nurture of their children to government? Be careful dealing in absolutes. It doesn't hold up to scrutiny.

And when did it become extreme to insist that our educators are correctly educating? Go ahead and ask your neighbors, and their kids, if we are a Republic or a Democracy…. See what they say. Despite the fact that we have good teachers, somehow we are producing generations that are “intellectually independent” of the principles that made us free. I wonder how that happened…

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By: Oak Norton https://www.utahsrepublic.org/daily-herald-what-social-democracy-means-to-utah-county-educators/comment-page-1/#comment-154 Sat, 03 Apr 2010 05:29:19 +0000 https://www.utahsrepublic.org/?p=350#comment-154 Daniel, you said “Stop listening to extremists with agendas and start finding out the truth for yourself,” and I couldn't agree more. Read up on John Goodlad, an extremist with an agenda. There are more quotes from Goodlad on this page:
https://www.utahsrepublic.org/democracy-media-fi

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By: Bryan https://www.utahsrepublic.org/daily-herald-what-social-democracy-means-to-utah-county-educators/comment-page-1/#comment-150 Sat, 03 Apr 2010 01:48:21 +0000 https://www.utahsrepublic.org/?p=350#comment-150 So, parents have the right to “fully” control the education of their children, eh? Let's follow that line of thinking: a particular parent might be an Islamic Fundamentalist and teach their children that homicide bombings are the morally right thing to do, a parent might be a Neo-Nazi or Facist and teach their children that killing people because of their race or ethnicity is okay, or a parent might be addicted to heroin and teach their children how to cook and shoot up. Are you saying that you're fine with that? Are you sure you wouldn't want some government intervention in any of those circumstances? Be careful dealing in absolutes, folks. They rarely hold up under scrutiny.

As far as the topic at hand, though, anyone who actually believes that Alpine School District is a subversive socialist organization trying to undermine local parents needs to have their logic called into serious question. Most of the people who work for Alpine School District ARE local parents (including the board and administrators). Many (if not most) were raised in the very culture that has now branded them domestic enemies. Please.
Research your logical fallacies, too. Because I take one or two ideas from another person, does that mean that I agree with that other person's philosophy? Does it mean that I agree with all of their ideas? Of course not.
Honestly, the agressive and hostile way people are reacting to the district illustrates that those people are the ones with an agenda. Cherry picking loosely implied socialism while completely ignoring the excellent academic and social outcomes that the district produces on a daily basis is a nice way to promote anti-education propaganda, but it doesn't have much to do with the truth. I challenge those concerned to find communist or socialist agendas being taught in classrooms. If it is happening, it is isolated and happening without district awareness or approval. Teachers found to be promoting any political ideology are reprimanded or worse. ASD teachers teach the core like the teachers in any other district in the state. The teachers and administrators are only interested in one thing: giving their students the best education possible so that those students will be successful and our great country will grow stronger. The current hostile groupies will have a difficult time finding any teacher or administrator that does not fully support the Constitution of the United States. Perhaps they should educate themselves a little. They should go talk to some teachers on a one-on-one basis, go speak to administrators, go visit and observe a class or two, and take a close look at the academics. They should talk to the students, for heaven's sake. Do those students spew anti-American socialist propaganda after graduating from the district's high schools, or do they love their country as much as their parents taught them to? Stop listening to extremists with agendas and start finding out the truth for yourself. Take back your intellectual independence. That's what educated people do.

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