Comments on: Dropping the Common Core State Standards A Constitutional Right Thu, 12 Jan 2012 14:27:34 +0000 hourly 1 By: Oak Norton Fri, 21 Oct 2011 05:22:00 +0000 Ah-ha, common ground! :) I was unaware of the prison lobby, but we are in agreement on much of what you’ve written here. However, these people all want power and money and they rob us through inflating our currency and taking our property. They manipulate the system to their own advantage because they have bought out politicians. We need statesmen and they are few and far between. 

By: Patti Fri, 21 Oct 2011 05:21:00 +0000 So to sum up what you have both said, big business is in bed with the government, and some leaders of our government are in bed with the communist/fascist movement! Where will that lead the American people? We are in serious trouble here! Our founding fathers warned us about the two party system and this conversation is a small sample of what it leads to…distracting us from what is really important! As far ad federal interference in the classroom is concerned, I live with it every day! I can no longer make decisions about what goes on in my classroom! The distrct dictates to me what I will do and how much time I will spend doing it! Pressure comes down on them from the state, who has taken federal monies. This will only get worse when this curriculum must be fully implemented! It is a nightmare for teachers! I agree with Oak! Get the government out of my classroom!

By: Anonymous Fri, 21 Oct 2011 03:00:00 +0000 Oak, I just wish you would expand your view of socialism to include national socialism (corporatism) which is a bigger problem right now in America than Marxist socialism.  If you think about it, we pretend that we are a Republic when we go to voting booth to exercise our right to vote, but in reality it is large corporations with deep pockets who are purchasing our representatives by funding their campaigns and even writing legislation. That is called a plutocracy which is a form of oligarchy.  I’m especially disgusted with the private prison lobby who are pushing through legislation to make it easier to incarcerate more and more Americans in order to turn a profit.  It is frightening to think that the U.S. currently incarcerates about 1% of its population (28 million people) at any given moment which is more than Russia and China combined.  While you are running around chasing communists, the reality is that we have already succumbed to an oligarchy in this nation that is trying to eliminate the power of the regular American citizen.   

By: Oak Norton Fri, 21 Oct 2011 01:52:00 +0000 Long time TKC. :) I’m not sure how much of my site you’ve really read and how well you understand my positions, but they aren’t grounded in party politics. If you read carefully above, nobody is espousing the Republican party. They’ve got their share of faults to be sure. If you follow the link above you’ll find that pretty much every prophet has spoken out against socialism since Joseph Smith. 

On the topic of judging others, there are 2 types of judgement the scriptures discuss. One is “judge not” which deals with eternal salvation. On that side, I never judge others. That judgement is left to God according to the knowledge and capacities of each person who comes to Him based on how they lived their lives on earth. The other type is where the Lord says “judge ye” which applies to avoiding false Christs, false prophets, false doctrines, dangerous teachers, unfaithful friends, etc… In this category I am quite open that Bill Ayers, John Goodlad, and many others are people to be avoided. I am firmly against socialism and recognize what true prophets have said about it. I stand for those principles, not as an eternal judge of where someone is going to go after they die.

By: Anonymous Fri, 21 Oct 2011 01:22:00 +0000 Oak, long time, not see, but I just couldn’t resist posting on this thread. I hope that you and Daniel are not offended by interjecting myself into your debate. You bring up a myriad of complex issues such as the State School Board being perceived as a 4th branch of government, but you know me and how I like to “rant.” I have some opinions on that, but I want to stick with the Benson issue.  I understand the keys of the priesthood, but the key, (I love punning) here is that only the senior apostle exercises all (underlined) priesthood keys.  Benson, in 1969, was not the senior apostle.  McKay also said that Benson is “entitled” to inspiration.  McKay did not confirm that everything Benson says was inspired, but that he was “entitled” to inspiration.  What McKay meant by out-of-line, was that it was not inappropriate for Benson to mix his political messages in his talks; that doesn’t make everything he says inspired though.  In the “context” of the time period, Benson was a divisive figure, especially in the wake of missteps of the JBS in regards to its anti-Mormonism and near-fascist ideological alignment.  Some in the church were wondering how Benson could have some of his political affiliations and yet be a general authority. McKay is no doubt trying to smooth the rough waters in that statement.  

I do not necessarily disagree with what Benson said, but I do have a problem with the men of today who take that statement and make judgments against their fellow man because of a perception that somebody is socialist or communist due to party politics and party rhetoric.  Oak, political parties are not the creation of God, they are the creation of man, and man is a flawed creature.  I don’t think Benson intended to say that someone was an “un-true” American because they support public education or drive on public highways because a political party interprets the support of public institutions as socialism or more bombastically, communism.

By: Oak Norton Wed, 19 Oct 2011 05:02:00 +0000 Daniel, I’m assuming you’re familiar with the U.S. Constitution and how it never mentions education but in the 10th amendment says everything not mentioned is reserved to the states. Education is a state issue, and as such, is written in our Utah state constitution, article 10. We have 3 branches of government in Utah (though some think the state school board is a 4th ;)). Thus all education within the state of Utah is ultimately under the control of the legislature which funds it and is constitutionally charged with oversight in this language:

“The Legislature shall provide for the establishment and maintenance of the state’s education systems including: (a) a public education system, which shall be open to all children of the state; and (b) a higher education system. Both systems shall be free from sectarian control.”

This came about, by my understanding, because when Utah applied for statehood, the feds wanted to force Utah onto a free government school system and end LDS schools. We became a state but Brigham Young and others tried to get early saints to not send their children to the free government public schools (which was one of Karl Marx’s 10 planks of the Communist Manifesto). The saints didn’t listen because the schools were free and over time lost what used to be true local control and now suffer through unconstitutional federal government control.

Within Utah, local school boards still have a lot of power but constitutionally they are subject to the legislature which is responsible to the citizens of the state.

The ETB quote doesn’t mix religious dogma with politics. He’s clearly addressing LDS people but clearly stating you cannot be a true American if you support communism. Your statement that the Founding Fathers didn’t mix religion and politics is unfounded I believe. There are many statements by them that clearly indicate strong religious preference in the laws. 

As for ETB being president of the church or not when those statements were made, I’m sure you would concur if you are in fact LDS, that all apostles hold all the keys and are sustained as prophets, seers, and revelators, but only the senior apostle exercises all priesthood keys. That said, in 1969 President McKay said this:
“By reason of his office and calling, Elder Benson is entitled to inspiration when addressing Church groups, and, since Communism is a definite threat to the eternal principles of free agency, it cannot be considered that he is “out-of-line” when discussing it in talks.” -Letter from David O. McKay’s Office, signed April 12, 1969

I’m also really not sure where you’re coming from on this Daniel, because on the one hand you say you like the quote, and on the other say it’s invalid if it wasn’t given while he was prophet. I really encourage you to read the other quotes on that page I linked to above. If you want a bunch of quotes from David O. McKay while he was prophet, you can read some on this page:

By: Daniel Rush Wed, 19 Oct 2011 04:25:00 +0000 Oak, I’ glad that you are a believer in local control of education.  The problem I’m seeing though is that the states are attempting to grab control of the local school districts as well.  One of the major problems in Utah schools is the state legislature.  I’m not sure why state level politicians think they need to control local schools themselves.  In fact, I’m not sure which is worse–state control of local school districts or federal control of local school districts.  What happened to the good old days of having local school boards make the decisions?

I like your quote by Ezra Taft Benson, but once again, we are mixing religious dogma with politics, something the founding fathers were not fond of.  Even worse, you are mixing LDS dogma with politics and not every Utahn is LDS.  How do you justify to non-LDS folks that they should follow the advice of an LDS leader?  I happen to be LDS, but I’m also old enough to remember the concerns, even in high levels of the church, of having a John Bircher take the reigns of the church because of past political statements such as making bombastic claims that Eisenhower and Truman were communists.  I’m also astute enough as an LDS person that a prophet has the keys bestowed upon him as a prophet, seer, and revelator upon confirmation as a living Prophet of the LDS church.  So, my question is this:  Was this statement by Ezra Taft Benson BEFORE or AFTER those keys were given to him?   Or were these statements made while he was serving in a political capacity in the Eisenhower Administration or as a representative of the JBS?  Sorry, but I need to have context provided with statements otherwise the statements are hollow and meaningless sound bites.   That is why I hate reading Cleon Skousen.  It is nothing more than a hodge podge of statements re-ordered and re-contextualized.       

By: Oak Norton Wed, 19 Oct 2011 00:33:00 +0000 Hi Daniel, if you read closely above, I never put down the actual standards. The CC math standards are a hot topic amongst mathematicians who see math errors in them, but that’s not what this post is about. It’s about the agenda of the federal government to take over local control of education. The reference to the book of Revelation is for those who believe a time is coming when a great collective will run the scene, how can people not see education as being controlled by that single entity as well. The destruction of local control of education is just part of the destruction of our freedoms. 

No posts have been removed from this site so I’m not sure what you’re talking about on the BYU student. In fact I see you posted a comment there which I’ll respond to when I’m done here.

This post has nothing to do with party politics but I’m a bit surprised that you would say “Can we keep religion out of politics for a change?” Churches should have full ability to comment politically. It’s the politicians who are not to abridge anyone’s freedom of religion.

When did I say all democrats are victims of indoctrination? There are many who are just simply misguided. :) While you bring it up, why don’t you read some of the advice and wisdom of the General Authorities on socialism and the great evil that it is.

“No true Latter-day Saint and no true American can be a socialist or a communist or support programs leading in that direction.” (Ezra Taft Benson, Title of Liberty, p. 190)

Many more quotes here:

By: Daniel Rush Tue, 18 Oct 2011 02:59:00 +0000 This post doesn’t make any sense. You attack the common core standards without referencing a single standard that you are objecting to, then post a picture of a school board re-election campaign which a citizen has perfect right to do, and then you muddy the waters with religious dogma. When it comes to quoting ancient religious text, one can pretty much find a passage that supports a political agenda of any persuasion.  Can we keep religion out of politics for a change?  It is becoming crazy.  Your attacks on BYU are indicative of that, especially the recently removed post about a BYU student becoming an Obama supporter (heaven forbid).  This banter has gotten so ridiculous that you actually believe that if someone is a democrat they are a victim of indoctrination.  Well, can’t a belief in Republican political ideology be a form of indoctrination as well?   The General Authorities have said during past General Conferences that it is okay to be a Democrat.  Who are you to circumvent the advice and wisdom of the General Authorities in the name of flawed man-made political structures?    

By: Oak Norton Thu, 13 Oct 2011 22:27:00 +0000 Dbabbitt took the words right out of my mouth. Great analogy to Jacob and Esau too!