The Secular Church

In this clip from a talk by the late Neal A. Maxwell (a Seventy and later Apostle in the LDS church), he lays out the battle of our day over the push for “ir-religion” in our schools. It is time the silent majority awoke.

16 Responses to “The Secular Church”

  • Jon F:

    How prophetic! And we now live in the world that he described.

  • Diannelind:

    What a wonderful clip! Thank you so much for sharing.

  • Buckeye:

    To the sheep of Oak and his beloved Glenn Beck, don’t be fooled. While Brother Maxwell expresses very serious concerns here, Oak will twist this message to suit his own purposes (as he does everything). Oak believes he is the sword of justice and will single-handedly rid the world of all Korihors. He would have you believe that only by living in his interpretation of a Republic can the Gospel be true. He will lead you down a path of anger and fear, as does Mr. Beck, of everything that does not fit his political agenda. Oak, like Satan, thrives on receiving glory for his deeds. His actions have become perverted from trying to make the world a better place into a world that fits his beliefs and no one else’s. Oak uses the teachings of man mingled with scripture. He will wrap a lie in truth and present it as truth, as does Mr. Beck.
    “ir-religion” is not a recent concern in the history of the World, look at Daniel. Oak will try to manipulate you into believing that our world has never been worse off. This shows his short-sightedness of history as well as everything else. He wants to persuade you to his political views by using religion. He is building a rameumptom to proclaim how his personal beliefs are greater than anything else. He wants you to join him and stand on the rameumptom and proclaim his ultra-conservative political as gospel.
    As a life-long member and scholar of the LDS church, I can tell you that political agendas have nothing to do with the Gospel. It is fear that makes people believe they are connected. The Gospel is simple- it is all about Love of God by serving your fellow man through charity. Politics has nothing to do with the teachings of God. As Maxwell pointed out, religion is under attack but that has nothing to do with politics as Oak tries to brainwash his followers to believe.

  • Actually, I don’t just build Rameumptom’s, I sell them. Opportunities are available for highly motivated individuals.

    So a question for you Buckeye. David O. McKay said, “There are two contending forces. Those forces are known and have been designated by different terms throughout the ages. In the beginning they were known as Satan on the one hand, and Christ on the other… In these days, they are called domination by the state, on one hand, personal liberty, on the other.” It seems like he’s talking about a political fight unless you read that differently. There’s a lot of quotes which I’m sure you’re familiar with that are pretty clear if you’d care to read them, that the fight we are facing right now is the same fight we fought in the pre-mortal realm. That war wasn’t over the gospel, it was over freedom.

  • Buckeye:

    Again you try to apply dissimilar things into the same thing. This has always led to heresy. Trying to claim prophetic abilities by showing to yourself how things in today’s world are like those in the scriptures is arrogance and dangerous.
    I agree that the Debate, figures you would focus on the word ‘war’, was about freedom. Your problem is you don’t want real freedom- you want your personal beliefs to be followed by all. You don’t want to lead by love and example- like Christ- you want to force others to believe your views- like Satan.

  • These aren’t dissimilar things. It’s the same thing. It’s the war for freedom right here. Will government have control and direction in all aspects of our lives including education? That’s Satan’s plan Buckeye and not the Lords.

  • Wow, who is the angry and bitter one again?

    It seems you are as unaware as the Herald was that no complaint was filed against Henshaw’s son. The SL Tribune ran an article that brought out almost an accusation against his son and I forwarded that out to my list saying there should be an investigation of facts. Then someone said they knew Kevin and he probably was the best one interviewed because he’s very bright and so I backed off (darn that pride just pressing me forward) and sent out the follow up email which the Herald somehow wound up with and published.

    You accuse me of pride and a host of other offenses and yet you don’t know me or my heart. You take offense at seemingly everything I write so I can only assume you thrive on it otherwise you’d have left here a long time ago. My posts aren’t filled with venom. They are factual. Take the post on John Burton. It’s presenting the facts as I’ve gathered them. I’m sure he’s a nice guy but I have concerns about his agenda and that of the district who pressed him to run against Tim Osborn.

    P.S. posts get blocked automatically when you put a link into your text. I always approve everything when I see something has been blocked. I’m not about to not let the public see your emails.

  • Buckeye:

    Oak I am not angry or bitter but thanks for once again for trying to shift the issue off yourself. I swear you are made of teflon, at least in your head. Oak, as I said your actions have spoken for themselves as to your motives. I do not take offense to everything you write- I take offense to your methods. You spout scripture and yet use fear and paranoia to convey your message. As I said, why don’t you follow Christ’s example and lead through love? I have asked you that many times and all you do is twist things to justify your actions.

  • Buckeye:

    As my post stated, you are the one trying to control everything- not the state.

  • Buckeye:

    Oak your message previously on these posts shows your arrogance and paranoia- teachers are to blame for what is happening in ASD. Your logic of they are just as bad as the marine who follows orders they know to be wrong is wrong on every account. Using logic like that is exactly like what Osama bin Laden has said about all Americans supporting a corrupt regime in Saudi Arabia. Bin Laden stated in his 1998 Fatwa that all Americans were guilty because we have not overthrown our government to stop their corruption, greed, and persecution of Muslims. This logic holds no water in the real world. Only those who are overwhelmed with Pride, arrogance, and anger use logic like this.
    I am sure you will claim that all Christians should be fighting for their values and if they don’t then they are guilty of not following God’s laws. Again this would be something you would use to justify your philosophies. Have you stepped back and seen how your issues have created fear and anger among your followers? Have you stepped back to see that your issues are not relevant to God’s plan?
    I know you feel that what type of government we have matters to God- but it doesn’t. All that matters is how we as individuals live our life. Members of the LDS faith in any government can still attain Celestial glory by living the Gospel on a personal level. Only Christ will bring a government that we must live by- it won’t be a Republic.

  • Lewis B:

    Buckeye, while Oak has gathered a small group of followers, he has failed in convincing most rational thinking people which is why he is obfuscating and confusing the entire “democracy” issue with religious dogma that appeals to the active followers of the majority religion of Utah County. Even then, most of it is being pulled and stretched dramatically from its original context, which is something that I was taught Satan does. If we analyze the progression of this current manic hysteria emanating from ultra-paranoids living in North Utah County enclaves, things become startlingly clear.

    Within two years ASD and (BYU in part for introducing and promoting Goodlad) has been accused of in the following order:

    1. being anti-god for refusing to hang Oak’s special, lengthy “in god we trust signs” in every classroom.
    2. being anti-republic and pro-Athenian style democracy
    3. enculturating (brainwashing/indoctrinating) students to prefer direct democracy over representative democracy (republic where people vote for their representatives)
    4. being anti-Christ for posting a story that contained a link to a link about Christ being a Vampire.
    5. promoting Marxism in the classroom because Karl Marx said democracy will lead to socialism
    6. promoting Marxism in the classroom because John Goodlad has an association with John Dewey who was a great admirer or Karl Marx and his Communist Manifesto.
    7. promoting civil disobedience and domestic terrorism in the classroom because Bill Ayers attended and spoke at a Goodlad conference. (Birds of a feather flock together)
    8. …and now, ASD is now accused of being agents of Satan, promoting Satan’s plan.

    Good grief! What is next? Oh, I know.

    9. ASD are supporters of compulsory education. How dreadful!

    Oak just needs to face up to the fact and admit that he is anti-public education. I have contended that all along. He lines up to take whatever pot shot against the system he possibly can and find whatever quote, scripture, statement, speech, etc that supports his views. I have never, ever, ever, heard him say one positive thing about public education. Not one. While it is not perfect, there has to be something good about it. I dread what our country would be like if we didn’t make an effort to educate our populace. Our enemies are doing every thing they can to educate their people and compete against the U.S. Instead of trying to tear ourselves apart and create two classes of people: have a lots and have nothings (like the failed Roman Republic), we will be a doomed nation for sure.

  • Lewis,

    I appreciate your tone on your other email, but this one just contains falsehoods that you keep repeating for some unknown reason.

    To respond to your points by number:
    1) Wrong. I’ve never accused ASD of being anti-God. You promoted this notion on another thread and maybe you didn’t read the whole response I gave explaining the story, but the posters came several years ago and Vern Henshaw refused to distribute them because the word “republic” was on the posters in the subtitle “The National Motto of the Republic of the United States of America” when he was OK distributing them when I offered to take “republic” out of the phrase.
    2) Mostly right. Goodlad and Ayers are pushing this philosophy through their organizations which ASD and the McKay School of Education are members of.
    3) Partly true. *Some* teachers and administrators are pushing anti-republic sentiment and pro-Goodlad/Ayers teachings. You keep making everything I say about *some* instances into “Oak says it’s everyone” which is just plain wrong.
    4) Nope, never said ASD was anti-Christ. Don’t know why you would even print that. ASD posted a link to a nut job who believes it, but I’ve never accused them of being that.
    5) I have never said any teacher is promoting the violent overthrow of our government. This is just stupid.
    6) Nope again. Never said that. I’ve written about the Weather Underground Manifesto which calls for the infiltration of education and the pushing of democracy into the schools as a transmission belt.
    7) Nope yet again. You’re pretty wild and loose with facts Lewis and you don’t even make an attempt to keep them straight. Ayers is speaking next month as the keynote speaker of Goodlad’s NNER conference. Nobody has ever accused ASD of promoting civil disobedience or domestic terrorism. This is just amazing that you are even typing this. Do you really believe what you’re typing?

    Next time find the actual text of these things before you post nonsense. If you can’t find it, then don’t start drawing inferences of your own making just hoping they’re true. I will start pulling wild comments off the site if you continue this because there is no basis in anything I’ve ever published that gives reference to these things.

    8) ANY group that engages in compulsion is following a plan of force. What I posted about ASD was this quote from their website:
    “Arguments for compulsory education have been based on the idea that the school is the only institution that can counter the accident of birth, guarantee quality of opportunity, and provide objective and fair ways to select and train talented individuals.” (

    You yourself read this some time ago and I believe your comment was “Outrageous!” Glad we agree.

    9) The whole public education system is based on compulsion since Horace Mann succeeded in his efforts. He wrote:
    “What the church has been for medieval man, the public school must become for democratic and rational man. God will be replaced by the concept of the public good. The common (public) schools shall create a more far-seeing intelligence and a pure morality than has ever existed among communities of men.”

    If you’re going to engage in a discussion or an honest debate of my views, at least do your homework and prepare something based on things I’ve actually said instead of just making up stuff. You won’t find me doing that on this website. Everything is documented and then I comment. You may not agree with it, and that’s fine, but at least I do provide actual references and I don’t make stuff up.

    As for something good about public education, I have published *something* which you either ignored or just find convenient again to pile onto me without taking the time to look anything up. I have written about heroic teachers who have put up with educratic nonsense and had their contracts threatened and have shut their doors to teach children the times tables in order to ensure they got taught what they needed. These teachers are underpaid and underappreciated. They are the reason the school system continues.

    This takes up far too much time for me to respond to nonsense. In the future I will delete such posts unless you quote where I’ve actually said something that you want to make a point about. There is no sense responding to things that don’t have a basis in something I’ve actually said.

  • Lewis B:

    So if ASD is not anti-God, anti-Republic, anti-Christ, pro-Marx, pro-Ayers and Goodlad, or pro-Satan’s plan, what is all the fuss about?

    I’m sorry that if my summary of your postings wasn’t to your liking. That is the way I perceive them when the parts add up to the whole. For instance, why do you bring up Ayer’s (a known domestic terrorist) when criticizing Goodlad? The thing, you have to realize, Oak, is that people will make inferences and will connect dots on their own. You mention that Ayers is speaking at NNER. Okay, Great. Now what does Ayers have to do with Alpine School District? Yes, you will say that Ayers made comments about how democracy will lead to socialism and that Ayers is a friend of Goodlad and ASD reads Goodlad; but that is merely guilt by association. Why do you constantly bring up Ayers? Is it to tap into what people already know about Ayers: that he is a domestic terrorist and that he anointed Pres. Obama in his living room (as said by Sean Hannity)? I’m not stupid, Oak. You do not need to convince me that Ayers has nefarious purposes and that he would prefer socialism and would use schools and democracy to reach those goals. I remain unconvinced though, that the ASD school board has those same goals. Yes, they read Goodlad because BYU loves Goodlad, but that does not mean they got the same meaning out of what they read as what you have read and understand to be true. Perhaps ASD and BYU belong to an organization that covertly pushes an anti-Republic philosophy, but does that translate into ASD adopting that same philosophy or interpreting it the same way. The motto appears to be evidence of such, but in the minds of the ASD, democracy means a government where power is vested in the people, not the Athenian-style democracy that NNER secretly espouses. ASD has said many times that their definition of democracy is a representative republic, but you just won’t accept it. You refuse to believe them and you place them as participants (willing or unwilling?) of the anti-Republic conspiracy. That is where we part ways, Oak. Is in not that I don’t believe your interpretations of Goodlad, it is that I don’t believe ASD interprets Goodlad the same way you do. I think ASD understands that interpretation now, but like any elected official, how do they bow out gracefully and change direction. BYU can blame their curtain call on lack of funding, but ASD doesn’t have that option without giving a victory to you–stubbornness on both sides, if you will.

    That leads into my question #3 that I mentioned previously. I admit that I should have not said “everyone”; however, you should not say “some” because you have never given me one specific example of where a teacher or administrator is pushing direct democracy over a representative republic in the classroom. Not one. I have been asking for these examples for over a year, and you have given me nothing. So how can you say “Some teachers and administrators are pushing anti-republic sentiment and pro-Goodlad/Ayers teachings” when you can’t even give me a specific scenario?

    In helping you understand why I’m confused, you post all these rants about ASD on your website and then you say you are not accusing them of doing the things you complain about. I guess you are right about one thing: I don’t get it.

  • Lewis, just to clarify your list of “anti’s” let me say this. The administration of ASD is controlled by people who are anti-Republic, pro-Goodlad. Since Ayers and Goodlad are essentially the same person in the things they write and teach ( it is fair to say that ASD buys into Ayers’ philosophies since Ayers and Goodlad teach the same thing. I don’t think I’ve ever come out and said ASD is pro-Ayers though, we’ve just pointed out these two socialist/humanists are birds of a feather to the point Ayers is the keynote speaker at next month’s Goodlad NNER conference.

    Next, you always want some chain of massive evidence that ASD is teaching “Athenian style democracy.” That’s not the point though you may want it to be. The point is we have teachers in the district that read Goodlad and believe the stuff he writes is accurate and true because it’s endorsed by ASD and BYU’s MSE (McKay School of Education) and so they teach his philosophy. If you go look into it, is that we need to teach the youth that everything is democratic including knowledge (since there’s no God it’s just what facts and the majority say are true), morals (51% and we can say adultery is moral), and patriotism. I’ve provided you with examples of this in the past, but again, you’re not satisfied because I haven’t pointed at someone saying in the classroom “we need direct democracy on everything.” There’s one more example I’ve learned about where a teacher gave H.S. students a map of the world and asked them to label the countries by their form of government. Democracy was on the list of choices but Republic was not. A combination of anti-Republic sentiment, and pro-Goodlad humanist democracy, is GOING to lead to socialism. Ayers, Marx and Lenin all follow this line. It’s dangerous to our freedom. If you still don’t get where I’m coming from, let me know but I don’t know if I can say it any clearer.

    You may have read this before, but Ezra Taft Benson explained why Marx wrote free government education for children into the communist manifesto. He said when you bring people together in a public education setting, only the common beliefs will be taught. Those who believe most (like in a God) give way to those who believe least (atheism). He said public schools would become the greatest transmission belt for the propagation of atheism in the world.

    As for ASD and bowing out nicely, they’ll never do it. After making a big announcement about leaving Investigations math a few years ago so we would relax and get off their case about the horrid program, at the beginning of the school year when they were switching to another program, they gave teachers Investigations math books and told them they could teach whichever they wanted. All professional development is Investigations oriented. However, they succeeded in lulling the public to sleep thinking Investigations was gone. Just now since school has started I’m aware of 3 separate elementary schools that have switched back to Investigations math. The district doesn’t back down or change. They don’t compromise. An olive leaf gets nowhere with this crew. They need replaced.

  • Lewis B:

    Why do you keep elevating Ayers with the status of Marx and Lenin? At least Marx and Lenin accomplished something.

  • Lewis B:

    Your example of the high school teacher and the map lesson is not a good example because of its lack of context. The high school teacher might be using the modern definition of democracy meaning a system of government where power is vested in the people. Just because Republic is not one of the choices doesn’t necessarily mean that Republic is not being taught as an example of the many kinds of “democracies” in the world. You cannot seriously think that every teacher in the district needs to ditch the modern usage of “democracy” for an 18th century definition? What is wrong with teaching the terms “direct democracy, pure democracy, or Athenian democracy” to students? Why must we muddle 100+ year old definitions of democracy with current ones? Isn’t that confusing to kids, especially when they turn on TV and hear every President of the U.S. since Wilson and most every politician use the term “democracy” in the modern usage of the word?

    The H.S. teacher you mention may also have purposely excluded Republic as a means to teach why countries such as China, Iran, North Korea, Venezuela, etc use “Republic” in their official names, even though they are not Republics. We just don’t what really went on in the classroom other than a snippet removed from its important context.

    I never said I want “massive” amounts of evidence to convince me, but evidence specific and detailed enough to convince me–evidence that you have still been unable to provide in any context or detail. With thousands of teachers employed in the district combined with your dire and frantic claims that Marxist Socialism has run amuck in ASD, one would think you could do better than this.